We've Made God's Holiness Too Small

We know God is holy — but what does that word actually mean? In this episode, we pick up where yesterday's conversation left off and work through what Scripture reveals about the holiness of God: that He is absolutely pure, and that He is awful in the truest sense of the word — full of awe, a consuming fire.

We look at what happened every time someone encountered that holiness directly, from Moses hiding his face to Isaiah crying out that he was undone. We also talk honestly about how easy it is to carry a diminished, distorted view of God — bringing Him down to our level the way the Greeks did with their gods — and why the standard of righteousness was never the person next to us, but God Himself. The episode closes with real pastoral guidance: look at your sin honestly, but don't stay there. Conviction is meant to lead you to confession, forgiveness, and healing.

Dr. Shah writes a personal letter every week — reflections on Scripture, faith, and living it out with clarity and purpose. Join the family: https://abidanshah.com/join-the-family/

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Check out the links below for more content from Dr. Shah and the Clearview team!

Read - https://abidanshah.com/books/
Watch - https://www.youtube.com/@abidanshahphd
Listen - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sermons-by-abidan-shah-ph-d/id619888508
Clearview Worship - https://open.spotify.com/artist/2m3OQUdBsucUTj6AFHg81S

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:38

We were talking about the holiness of God, but what exactly does that mean, holiness? And how can I understand it if it's fundamentally apart from who I am?

SPEAKER_01 0:46

It's a great question for today's conversation on the Clearview Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abaddon Shah, a daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

I'm Ryan Hill. I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today studio. We got a great episode for you guys today with our host, Dr. Abaddon Shah. Dr. Shaw, welcome. It's good to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

We're talking about the holiness of God and it's right. I'm excited to talk about that this morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Yesterday's episode was so impactful as we as we explore this concept that's really difficult for us to grasp. It's difficult for us to understand what the holiness of God truly is and its implications on our lives.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

And you may or may not be able to understand everything about God's holiness in this 30-minute episode, but this is a great show for you to be able to subscribe to. You know, we're on the radio every single day, but you can also check in with us every single day too. If this is your first time ever joining us on the show, we want you to text today, T-O-D-A-Y to 252-429-6069. That's 252-429-6069. That's going to help you join our family. Uh, there's a link in the description of this podcast where you can submit your email as well. And if you do either one of those, just know we're going to send you a little gift and welcome you into our family as we continue to discuss the attributes of God.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

That's right. Dr. Shah, yesterday you used the analogy of a dam holding back water. And the the water is God's wrath, God's punishment. And the the dam represents, you know, the holiness of God in and separating us from that punishment. However, the the sin in our life, you know, whether it's a big sin or little sin, all of it represents a crack or a hole in that dam. And over time, that punishment is just gonna pour out at us. This the sin, there's no gradation, there's no there's no tier or hierarchy of sins. Every single sin is an affront to a holy God.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

I have a better illustration. Okay. So we just went out to eat with our team. Yep. And I I don't think the camera can zoom in, but right there, there's a tiny little spot that came from the food we were eating. Yes. And as careful as I was, that one little speckle of food or whatever, I don't know what a little I think it was butter chicken.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Butter chicken.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

The smallest drop. Yep. And it just kind of made its way here. Boop.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

But you know what's funny? As as crazy as crazy small as that little drop is, once you know it's there, your eye goes right to it. Little orange spot. It's not even a centimeter across.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's yeah, I mean it's very tiny. And I've used the tide stick, and they can maybe support the show.

SPEAKER_03 3:17

But uh sponsored by Tide.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

But now I have to go to a visitation for a funeral, and I'm gonna have to button my jacket. Because where I was gonna just walk in there like this, uh-huh, now it's right there. It's right there. Front and center. And that's how sin is. You know, your rest of your my my sleeves are fine, my collar is fine, the rest of my shirt is fine, back is fine, but that one spot.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Now think about that magnified, countless uh number. That's how much human beings sin. And if that's the case, imagine what that will do to the holiness of God. It would completely, you know, blotch it and see cannot, cannot, cannot have even one tiny little speck. I mean, this is bothering me. Yeah. Imagine what it does to a perfect and a holy and a just and a righteous God. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

I love that picture too, because even if you cover it with your with your coat jacket, it's the spot is still gonna be there.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

So I mean, if we try to it's gotta go to the dry cleaner.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Yeah, if we if we try to mask it, if we try to cover up our sin, it doesn't change the fact that it's still there. Even though it might not be visible for a time, it is still there.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

Well, I like the I like the way that you put it too, is that it doesn't really matter about the sleeves or the collar or any of that stuff. Your eye, like it, or at least your mind is right there. Like imagine getting out on stage, right? And you're in an immaculate suit. It's like pressed, the collar is stiff, the cufflinks are there, but my my fly is down. Yeah. And people know, and people notice, right? I can't defend myself and be like, well, look at my collar. Look at how no one's pressed the sleeves are.

SPEAKER_01 4:52

No one's gonna care or remember that.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

It's like, yeah, all we see is that you're flying. Right. So two of the sin in our life. But but that's what we do, Dr. Shaw. We say, Yes, I've got this sin, but look at what I do. Look at look at how I serve, look at how I worship, look at how I preach, look at how I X, Y, Z.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Yeah, absolutely. Holiness means God is absolutely pure. Absolutely pure. Now, that's just a spot I can see. I I guarantee it all over my shirt. There are tiny aberrations, a little may not be a pen or pencil mark, but I'm sure there are things that I can't even see with my naked eye. They're there. And if I were to know that, I would be like, oh wow, this is all over. Because I've had this shirt, I would say, maybe six, seven years, I would say. So they're all over. Imagine how much that can be can be you know used to understand the holiness of God. He has to be absolutely pure, and there is so much sin in this world. The second thing about the holiness of God is that is that it means that God is awful. And and we think awful means terrible. But here, one of the definitions of holy is the Greek words that translates the awful thing. Let me give you some scriptural basis for that. Hebrews chapter 12, verse 29. For our God is a consuming fire. A consuming fire means it's it's it's awe full, not awful. No, that's awful. No, like full of awe. Full of all. Okay, okay. Isaiah 33, 14. Who among us shall dwell with devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with an with uh everlasting burnings? So we have to understand that we are in the presence of a holy God. We must go low because he sits on high. We must hallow his name and worship him with reverence. So understand that he is full of awe. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

There are things on earth that sort of just take your breath away. You know what I mean? I see them as sort of maybe you can lean uh speak to this too, Dr. Shah. They're sort of like pale, dim reflections of what God's awe is like. Like, have you ever seen like a fire like get out of control? Yeah. Like you have a bonfire or something, but then it really, I remember my father-in-law had a bonfire one time that got way bigger than I thought. And I remember the moment where it went from being fun to like, this thing is powerful.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

If it goes out of control, you won't be able to escape.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

No, the woods catch, we're done.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Yeah. Yeah, you feel the you feel the force from the fire at that point. You can hear it, you can, you can feel the heat, you can, it's blinding light, but you almost feel the vibration of the fire roaring. And it's it you recognize how powerful this thing is.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

There's yeah, there's that moment where it's like, this is a fun cookout, a fun bonfire to okay, this is a powerful thing that we're kind of. And I wonder if we as Christians we've lost that offer God. Yeah. Where it's like, this is my buddy, this is my friend, he's always there for me. And I don't really have that sense of this is a all-powerful being.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

If we can read this, this is a great passage that sort of demonstrates how one mere mortal came in the presence of this awful God, awful. It's in Isaiah chapter six. We know this passage. It says, In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne high and lifted up, and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above it stood Seraphim. Each one had six wings, but two, he covered his face, with two, he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and said, Holy, holy, holy, the Lord of hosts is the Lord of hosts, and the whole earth is full of his glory, and the posts of the door were shaken by the voice voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke. This is just a visible manifestation of a holy God. I mean, keep in mind, God is a spirit being. Holiness is an attribute. But this is just a way that God chose to reveal Himself to Isaiah. Just a little pull, kind of a peek behind the veil. Just like God just uh allowed the angels to just just kind of pull the curtain back just a little bit, just like Moses in the cleft of the rock, just a little bit, and so you can see and then say, Oh, you're gonna die. Yeah, I have to pull it back.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Yeah. Limited exposure. Why why that limited exposure for Isaiah and for Moses? A holiness.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Yeah. It's because of the holiness of God. Their sin couldn't be in that present, in the presence. Could not be. Mere mortals who are sinful human beings, even if you are saved, uh, you cannot survive in that presence.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

You described God's holiness as uh the agr I'm trying to remember the words you used, almost like the aggressive pursuit and destruction of sin. Like it it it will by its nature it seeks out and consumes sin. And I think sometimes we we have the mistaken picture of God who is like almost like Zeus sitting up there and and zapping people when they do things wrong, or like passing out judgments for sin. And the Bible does use some of that language where God is a judge and you know, things like that. But God's holiness, by its nature, pursues and destroys sin.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Yeah, you know, you brought up Zeus. The Greeks tried to do a lot of things, a lot of things to help them understand nature, the laws of nature, which is really the laws of God. They try to do a lot to understand the meaning of life, the goal and pursuit of life, our origins, our destinations. They try to understand it from a human, I wouldn't just say point of view, but from a human from from the ground up, so to speak. More than I would say any other civilization. Others did a lot of things, but the Greeks, and I'm talking about in that period of Homer to the classical age, where the Greek philosophy was at its height, right or wrong, it was at its height. They tried to do a lot to understand you know, how is this world functioning? Who's behind this? Who are we? Where do we come from? Where are we going? Right. And in the process, they did give us a lot of wonderful things, ideas, principles, a perspective to see the world. But they also gave us a very diminished, very distorted understanding of who God is. Don't get me wrong, the classical writings are amazing. I mean, when you read them, you go, wow, this is the height of the world civilization.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

It's amazing that they are they are dealing with issues that we are struggling with today and still don't quite understand. They're giving us timeless principles, but then they're also doing something that is very destructive, is giving us a very diminished uh understanding of who God is. And that understanding was there before them. They expressed it in their writings or their myths and mythologies, and those understandings still persist today. Do you feel like that's often the struggle of people is a diminished view of God?

SPEAKER_03 12:43

Diminished and distorted. Yeah, because I feel like that's the whole reason that we're doing this. We're doing this series of getting to know God is because we think we know God. We have an idea of what God is, and so maybe we try to play at worshiping that idea, or maybe we try to bring that idea to fit our worldview. But really, when you start looking at God, even this discussion on holiness, it's like there's a lot of things that, yeah, that's true. And I never really thought about it like that.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Even the language we use that we got to be careful of because for us to say things like, to me, God is like, you know, God isn't bound by our terms and in our boxes. We we're seeking to understand him, but he is bigger and more than we ever could be.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

And I think about what you said, Ryan, about how like his holiness is aggressively pursuing the destruction of our sin and how we treat that. You know what I mean? Like, I think a lot of people, like for instance, people will be like, I really need to rush to get to work. Why? Well, because my boss is gonna be upset, or because I've got a meeting with a client and I might lose that client, and I I'm worried about how they're gonna react. But I sin every day and I never think twice about how God is gonna react. Yeah, because I God's forgiving and he's gonna love me no matter what, and I'm his child and I'm saved. And it's like, yeah, that might be true, but what a distorted understanding of God's holiness.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Well, again, going back to the Greeks, and I I use the Greeks not to I'm talking about the not today's you know, the Greek country of Greece, but I'm talking about the the Greek as in the classical age, right? Which g which gave us a lot of a lot of wonderful things. I use them as an example because a lot of what we're doing today is they just simply brought that to a beautiful expression, a very heightened expression. All their gods were very what's the word? I I I I'm losing the technical word, but that they made them into they gave them human emotions.

SPEAKER_03 14:30

Oh, anthropom anthropomorphized?

SPEAKER_00 14:33

In a sense, yeah. They they those gods did the same thing that we do. Yeah. They envy, they are they get angry, they lose control, they are pulled by their emotions. In a moment they just they just go erratic or they go hypersexual, whatever, they just do and so they they brought the God into God's into our level. And we tend to do the same thing. Although all these myths and mythologies from Iliad and Odyssey are simply that expressed on a heightened level. But on a daily level, the man on the street is doing the same thing. Yeah, average Christians are doing the same thing. That's right. We are we are bringing God down to human emotions, like he is just like us. He is in some ways because we're made in his image, but no, he is very unlike us. Yeah, right. He is the other. That's right. And when Moses came into that presence, Exodus 3.6, he hid his face where he was afraid to look upon God. When Paul encountered Jesus in Acts 9:8, he rose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened, he saw no one. I mean, it blinded them. Yeah. And then of course, John in Revelation 1.17, and when I, John, saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. Wow. So this is not trying to bring God down to our level. This is us just momentarily, like like in an infinitesimal moment seeing who God is. And these are not like people like us, yeah. Moses, Paul, John the Apostle, who walked with Jesus, and they are like, I'm dying. Yeah. Dr.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Char, do you do you feel like in your time as a pastor, in your study, or really even in your walk with God, do you feel like there's been a moment in your life where you were sort of like had one of those moments where the curtain was pulled back and you were like captivated by the holiness, the bigness, the the majesty of God? Is there is there a moment that stands out to you that you're like, wow, God really is bigger than I have really ever conceived of?

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Yeah, it does. And I'll tell you, the only time that it does for me, the only time, is when I'm reading scripture. It's not in my personal experiences. It's not me walking down the street or something like that, and then all of a sudden be like, oh, wow, oh, gosh. Oh, you know, it doesn't, hasn't. It's when I encounter the word of God, and I truly in the moment allow the Holy Spirit to help me see what is being written and understand it in that brief moment. I realize, wow. Like just now. Reading from Exodus six uh three and Acts 9 and re Revelation 1, in that brief moment to see these powerful individuals who were brilliant, who were extraordinary, who knew God, for them to fall on their face, that tells me that God is just more than my mortal mind can comprehend.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

Let's bring it to the let's bring it to the listener, right? Because if someone's listening to this right now, and I think maybe you would agree, Dr. Shah, that if we truly did comprehend the the holiness of God, our lives would necessarily change. There's no chance we would live the talk to us a little bit about the life we could be living if we really grasped God's holiness.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

I would say it will really make us hesitate before we say anything untrue. It will really cause us to to stop in our tracks and examine our lives and not sit there and examine and think about it and think about it and think, no, to immediately go into repentance and confess our sins. It would call cause us not to as much as look at the the faults or the the speck in your brother's eye or sister's eye or or spouse's eye, but see the the big beam that is sticking out of our own eye. That's right. It would cause us to be to be upset and upset is such a such a mundane term, but to really be troubled at the sin in this world. Sometimes people sit and listen to messages about values and where America is today and and how things are this and how things are that. But if you truly understood the holiness of God, it should it should really trouble you the direction where we're headed. Instead of just saying, Well, lost people do lost people things, which is true. It should still bother us. That's right. You know, though those I think that's what would happen. What do you think would happen? What what's what's another thing you think would happen? I mean, if if if that person uh does not know Jesus Christ, that they have never accepted God's substitution for their death. And God's substitution for the death is the death of Jesus Christ. The only one who could die for us because he was dying for our sins, not his. And he rose from the grave because if he stayed dead, then that sacrifice was in vain. Yeah. Means sin is now consumed. Right. But he came to life, and now he can give life to us. I mean, it all works perfectly once you understand that. So it would really encourage us and challenge us to keep sharing the gospel because if God is holy, judgment is coming.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

I think you've beautifully summed up several ways that the holiness of God impacts our beliefs about other things, about who Jesus is, about the cross, about salvation. It's not just, hey, thanks, Jesus, for dying in my place that you you took this punishment that was meant for me. Jesus was the only one. Jesus was the only way this would have ever worked. Yeah. And and that was on God's heart before Genesis 1.1, before the foundations of the world were laid, Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. And that's that's beautiful and magnificent and way more than we can comprehend.

SPEAKER_03 20:47

Of course. You think it would be cool if like each of us thought of a way that this could help us today, like in the next 24 hours? Like I think for me personally, I think understanding God's holiness, hopefully, my prayer is that it's going to help me speak with more gravity. And but what I mean by that is like not speak idle words. You know, a lot of times you joke around and you play, and nothing wrong with that. But sometimes, and and Dr. Shah, you know this as well, when you're loose with your words, it's because you feel like there's not really any consequence. If people get offended or if people take it the wrong way, all right, it'll be okay. A couple days, weeks, blowover. But if I really understand the holiness of God, then especially with microphones and with a platform like like we have, every word means something.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Yeah, of course. Because God does not immediately destroy us and consume us and just make us as if we never existed, we think, oh, nothing happened. If I were to scare you, like, hey, you you do that again, the ceiling's gonna fall on you. And you're like, oh, my goodness. And nothing happens. I say it again, and nothing happens. Say it again. Then after a while, you'll be like, Oh, those are just words. No, could it be that I've also instructed somebody up there not to allow the ceiling to fall on you? So that's where God's mercy comes in. That's right, or God's compassion comes in, that God's patience comes in. So you know, we think, oh, nothing happened. No, something should happen, but it's another attribute of God that is holding it back. Why? Because God doesn't want any to perish, but to for all to come to repentance. Yes, you know. So it it's we need to understand that God holds the standard of righteousness. You and I cannot say, well, compare it to so and so. No, the standard. Standard is God Himself. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 22:40

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

You know, Isaiah says right here in Isaiah 6 verse 5, he says, So I said, Woe is me, for I am undone, because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips, for my eyes have seen the king, the Lord of hosts. You see, Isaiah did not just look at the angels or himself or some of the holy people. He saw God and he realized, wow, that is the standard. So when you talk about holiness, you cannot judge God's holiness. You have to judge it by God Himself. That's right. That's right. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

I think for me, thinking about God's holiness and how it impacts kind of the immediate context, you know, while we're recording this, we're in the middle of vacation Bible school. So we've got a bunch of kids, a bunch of volunteers, teenagers that are here. And so for me, understanding the holiness of God brings a weight to everything that we're doing in VBS. Every lesson, every demonstration, every word from the stage isn't just, hey, this is cute and fun, and we're going to fill time and we're entertaining the kids. But every moment is an opportunity to connect these kids to a holy God who loves them and who gave his son for them.

SPEAKER_03 23:55

Well, you know, we talk a lot. And I don't mean that in a funny way, but I mean that's this is, you know, you're teaching, Dr. Shah, you're teaching every single week, multiple times a week. We've got a daily radio show. And I like that Isaiah said, I'm a man of unclean lips. Yeah. Not hands, not thoughts, but the things that I speak. I think I'm guilty of that, of just idle words. And not all of it is like trash or filth or anything like that. I'm mostly it's it's not, but there's just idle words. So if every single word counts, you know, one day, and that's one thing I never think of is oh man, I shouldn't have said that. Oh well. But no, one day I'm gonna have to give an account for those idle words.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:27

You know, Dr. Shaw, as the listeners, as people are taking account of their own lives and maybe they're seeing their own shortcomings. In the next 24 hours, what's something that they can do or we can do to better understand the holiness of God?

SPEAKER_00 24:39

I would never recommend people to do a deep autopsy on themselves. But then again, autopsies is usually done on a dead body. Yeah. But but I would never do like what you will call the word is escaping me. Like you like you send off a sample and you you look to like labs and stuff. Labs, you know, like exploratory surgery.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Examination, some sort of assessment, like a physical report of what's going on inside.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Yeah, like like a biopsy. That's a good way to say that. You know, I won't ever tell someone to just sit there and do biopsy after biopsy of your whole body because you will destroy yourself. Yeah, you you cannot do that. But if if you can just do enough to look at your own sin, I mean enough that you can glimpse and go, yeah, I have a I have a problem. And it's not a small problem, it's a big problem. I am the one. Because the enemy will con convince you, yourself will cons convince you, the world will convince you that someone else is the one with the problem, not you. You're okay. They are the ones. And and even say, your problems are not as bad as someone else. And so if if you can suspend all that and just say, Oh yes, it's there and it's deep. Like I hate to use the analogy of cancer because cancer is awful, it's terrible. And if you've gone through it or a family member, I don't want to ever, you know, make you feel bad. But think about it. If you have cancer, you're not gonna say, Well, mine is not as bad as yours. Yeah, good point. You you won't you won't say that, oh, compared to yours, yeah, this will still kill me, but it's not as bad. No, you'll be like, Oh, I have cancer. That's that's what you'll be concerned with. Yeah. So that cancer in you is that three-letter word, sin. Okay. So when you look at that and you go, Oh, the report came back, yes, there's a problem. Then just let that be the starting point for you to repent before God and say, God, work in my life, whatever is happening around me, and with others, family or work or church or whatever, it's really something you're doing in me. So, God, please allow your Holy Spirit to override whatever voices I'm hearing, whether self or others or the enemy, override those and help me, Lord, to hear what you're saying to me. And God is not gonna leave you in a deep place of con confession and and just contrition and just morbid self-absorption. He's going to bring that conviction of sin and then immediately lead you to confession or to forgiveness and then a renewed desire to move forward. So if you stay there and just just just super focus on yourself and keep digging deeper with that biopsy, that's not God. That's Satan. That's right. Because Satan wants you to just just dig in and just tear it to pieces, but God wants to show it to you and let's go into surgery. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Amen. God wants you to move forward, God wants you to to continue with obedience to him. And we pray that today's episode helps you on that journey, that it's a step away from what you've been believing in and toward a clearer view of the holiness of God and its impact in your life.

SPEAKER_03 28:20

That's right. And these episodes are gonna help you with that. So make sure if you haven't subscribed already on iTunes or Spotify, that you do it because every day we're on the radio. But if you're listening to this as a podcast, you're gonna listen to every single episode as we go through and dig uh deeper and deeper understand who God really is.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

If today's your first time listening to the show, we want to hear from you. John, how can they get in touch with us?

SPEAKER_03 28:39

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SPEAKER_01 29:02

That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you tomorrow and leave you today.