Are We Really Surrounded by the Saints — Or Is It Just a Metaphor?

"We are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses." But where are they — in heaven, on earth, or somewhere else? In this episode of Clearview Today, we continue our Getting to Know God series by exploring one of the most fascinating and least-preached ideas in Scripture: the "Christ time," and what it means to walk the hall of faith as if those who've gone before us are cheering us on right now.

We work through Hebrews 11 and 12, where the writer invites us to step by faith into another realm and see Abraham, Moses, and Ruth not as figures from a dusty past, but as witnesses running alongside us. We talk about why the Word of God is living and powerful, how entering the Christ time reframes the way we read Scripture, and how this truth steadies us in our own moments of doubt, stress, and decision. Dr. Abidan Shah also shares the story of his own father walking out into the night with nothing but the clothes on his back, and why he now counts him among that same cloud of witnesses.

We also draw a clear and important line: this is not the culture's idea of ancestors watching over you. Satan always offers a counterfeit, and apart from Jesus Christ there is no access to God's time at all. This is a real realm, opened only through Christ, and it's meant to help you run your race with endurance.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:39

We are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses. But where are they? Are they in heaven? Are they here on earth? Are they somewhere else?

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Today's conversation is going to help us understand that on the Clearview Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadon Shah, a daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today studio. We're here with our host, Dr. Abadan Shah. Dr. Shah, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Man, I'm excited to continue this conversation on God being eternal.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

That's right. A deep subject. It is a deep subject. And we want to include you in that conversation. So if today is your first time ever listening to the show, we want you to text today. T-O-D-O-D-A-Y to 252-429-6069. It's going to let you join the Clearview Today family. You'll be able to text us anything you want beyond that point. It'll also add you to the mailing list. And if you do both of those two things, we're going to send you a free gift. We do like free gifts. Who doesn't like a free gift?

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Gifts are the best kind of gifts.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

If you're if you're listening to this show and you're the type of person who doesn't like a free gift, well, I don't know what to say. You just probably are not very fun. In which case, this is probably not the show for you. I'm just kidding. Keep listening.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Keep listening. Because we're talking about the the eternality of God or the timelessness of God. And that as time-bound beings, that is something that is profoundly difficult for us to understand. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yeah, God is timeless. God is eternal, which means God has no beginning, no end, or successive of succession of moments in his own being. He sees all time equally vividly, uh, yet God sees events in time and acts in time. And so it is a deep subject, but it has a lot of relevance. In the previous couple of episodes, we talked about the Christ time. Ann Jarvis has written a great book on this subject, Paul in Time. And in this work, he she helps us understand that yes, we are living in we are time-bound creatures. God is not timeless, but he is in a different time. And time to time, he allows us to enter into that realm and see life from his perspective. Especially when things get difficult, especially when things seem hopeless, or you feel like you don't know which way to go. He allows you to step into that realm in which there is a time, but it is the Christ time. Yeah. And you see, you see, there you see Abraham over there. You know, Abraham being called from the Uru of the Chaldeans to go to a place he had never been before. And he trusts God and he steps out. There you see David. David is this man after God's own heart. He is this young lad who who is now going to fight Goliath. And and then he is being chased around by King Saul. There you see the prophets. There you see Jesus. There you see Paul in in a Roman prison. And you see that if God is a God of hope, then He is also a God of hope for our future and our present. So, yes, this is a deep subject, but I don't think this is an abstract subject.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Yeah. This is one of my favorite things we've ever discussed on the podcast, and also that you've preached from the pulpit, because it's such a fascinating. I mean, let's just like physics on a different level. This is this is philosophy kind of taken to the extreme. It because it's much more than just you imagine that these events are unfolding in front of you. Like your sanctified imagination remember think thinking about David or thinking about Abraham. No, it's there is a different time that God is allowing you at various points to step into.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Yeah, so if that sounds like science fiction to you as a listener, number one, I would say you need to download the podcast and go back and listen to yesterday's episode because we really went into detail. But Dr. Chow, if someone's listening on the radio and they're like, this really sounds like like Star Trek. Like I'm gonna step into another realm and I will see Abraham, see David. What are you talking about? Will you give just the listeners maybe just like a two, three-minute recap of yesterday's episode? What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Yeah, absolutely. Well, one thing I would encourage them to do is also go back and listen to our Romans series. You know, we in our series to the book of Romans, right here at Clearview Church, I preached through the book of Romans, and and I looked at this book from a different perspective. Yes, justification is the cardinal doctrine. We are saved by grace through faith is at the heart of the book of Romans. But then there's also some other ways to look at it secondarily. And one of the ways to look at it is entering into the Christ time where Paul talks about you know this other realm and how God is working and how he's bringing all things to a close. And so I encourage people to do that. But if you read how Paul describes time, if you read that carefully in the New Testament, you will see that at times he is entering into a different world and he's looking at God's interaction with his people as if it's it's happening right before his eyes. This is especially true with regards to Israel. You know, nowadays it is invoked to say that Jewish people are no special, that God's promises to Israel have been nullified because they rejected the Messiah, so now none of that matters. But if you read Romans 9, 10, 11, the way he describes the promises and how the promise was made to Abraham, it's not as if it was made back then and it's been abrogated since then, so none of those apply. No, he's talking about those promises as if they were they're just made. That's right. And no amount of happenings in our realm can nullify those promises.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

This is me asking, but I think also for the from the perspective of the listener, the book that you mentioned by Ann Jarvis that she wrote about Paul in time, is it entry-level or is it like a scholarly book?

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Is it something that's a great question? I think it can be understood. And I believe there may be a learning curve, but that's okay. Why why read only books that you can aim into? Why not read some books that may challenge you?

SPEAKER_04 7:06

That's a great point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Do some do some digging in and trying to understand where this person is coming from. Now, again, I would say I don't agree with every single conclusion that she draws, but overall, it opens a new way, a fresh way to look at Paul's writings. And I don't think it's contrary to what Paul was saying. I mean, the way he describes the promises made to Abraham, man, you have to step into the Christ time and you see that those promises have not been have not been deleted.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

That's right. Could you speak to the person who's maybe is a literalist, maybe is uh having a hard time understanding is this metaphorical what Paul is seeing, or is Paul getting a supernatural vision from God that I should expect in my life? Can you speak to that person who's like, I want to genuinely understand what you're saying?

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Yeah, that's a good point. How how exactly does this work mechanically? Like, do I do my eyes see like a hallucination?

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Or do I just gain another level of understanding of who God is?

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Well, it's it's a walk of faith, right? It's all by faith. Hebrews chapter 11. Okay, when when that writer of Hebrews, some people say Paul, I lean in that direction. I think it's Paul writing the book of Hebrews. But even if he didn't, I think it still works. What is the hall of faith all about? It's it's inviting us to step into that other realm and see by faith, Abraham, by faith, Jacob, by faith, Samson, by faith, all these heroes of history. Look at what they did. And then what does Hebrews chapter 12, verse 1 begin with? Since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses. Surrounded present tense. Yes. Are surrounded. Yeah. This is not so you can say, Whoa, that's metaphorical. Are you sure? We're surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses. Let us therefore run the race set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. Means that means as you are running in this life, remember that you're also surrounded by these cloud of witnesses. Oh, you mean like they're all up there cheering? No, they're all up there doing what Hebrews 11 just told us told us. There is Abraham willing to sacrifice his son. There is Moses willing to give up the passing pleasures of sin in Egypt and esteeming the reproach of Christ's greater riches than all the treasure in Egypt. There is Moses saying no to all the the wealth and the pyramids and and the tomb that he was building for, he's saying no to that. Can you see that? So as you're running the race, look at them and look at them and look at them and look at them. And you are also in a race, and you have a choice to make. And you can make a choice based on your emotions, based on how you're feeling, based on the thoughts that are invading your mind, or you can make a choice based on I get it, brother. I got it, I got it, I got it. And now I'm looking at Jesus, who also, right? You're entering into that Christ time, who also, what did he do? Who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross. Enter into the time where you're standing by the foot of Calvary, and there you see Jesus enduring the cross, despising the shame. Yeah. Yeah. And now you're seeing him walking up and sitting at the right hand of the Father.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

And we're saying these aren't like, imagine this is happening. This is actively like over here, this is happening, over here this is happening.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

Run race while that is happening. Yeah, of course, they have happened 2,000 years ago, or 3,000 or 4,000, depends on which biblical character we're referring to. If it's Mose, if it's Moses, then we're going back 1600 BC.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

If you're talking about uh or 1500 BC, if you're talking about Abraham, then you're going back to like 2100 BC. Yeah, we're not talking about like time travel. Right, we're not time traveling, but when you enter into that faith realm as Hebrews talks about, and at ro as Romans talks about and many other passages in the Bible, uh, you you're not called to just flip over the pages of history, you're called to live as if those witnesses are are telling you, see, I'm I'm I've done this. You know, among those cloud of witnesses I also see my dad. As he is saying, as he's standing out in in his room that night, when his own father said, when his father said to him that if you want to stay in this home, you'll have to renounce all this Christian stuff and go back to being a Muslim, or just just be at home. Just don't don't become this this crazy person. And if you stay here and tomorrow morning you're still believing like you believe about Jesus being the Lord and God and all that stuff, then it will not be good for you. Translate we may take you out. And my dad stepping out into the night with nothing but the clothes on his back, maybe a few things in his small little tin box, and walking out into the unknown, not knowing where he's gonna go. He's also one of those witnesses for me.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

What is that what does that mean for you, Dr. Shah, to look out and and see, you know, kind of the the forefathers, the heroes of our faith, Abraham and David and these big names in the Bible, but also also your dad. What does that do for you to look out in the eyes of faith, see his story?

SPEAKER_02 12:46

And so also for the listener who's listening to this as well, who's starting to come around and say, I I think I see what you're saying. You know, what does that do for us?

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Oh, it does a lot for me. People think that just because I'm a pastor or I have a PhD or I'm a scholar and all that, they think I don't have any struggles. Or they think like all those have been kind of sort of neutralized for me. That's not true. I have my good days and I have my bad days. I have my days of doubt, I have my days of frustrations, I have my days of wondering, God, is it worth it? I I have the days when when the thoughts in my head get cluttered or negative or or or seem to overwhelm me. But what do I do in those moments? Entering into the Christ time allows me to see that Abraham had those thoughts and Moses struggled. Imagine 40 years sitting in the backside of the desert wondering, did I make a mistake? Why, why am I here? You know, God had to give him 40 years to finally allow him to sort of work those things out, but also prepare his people in Egypt to be ready to leave. So it helps me not only to know that others have faced this, and yet they remain single-focused. Yet they did not go with their emotions, yet they did not go with what makes me feel happy or not happy. I may be unhappy today, tomorrow, oh, it's a great world. Wonderful. Well, wait, shucks, I made a decision back here. Imagine, I mean, y'all know what I'm talking about. We had a great phone call today.

SPEAKER_04 14:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

I mean, what if I had made a decision uh day before? Or yesterday, or this morning. That was a horrible decision. Then that phone call came. Now what would I do?

SPEAKER_05 14:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Or, or God in his sovereignty already knows what's gonna happen next. He's gonna be saying, if you're gonna make that decision, you don't need this. Go ahead, go your way. So allowing me to enter that realm not only gives me faith, hope, and confidence, but also calls on me to run the race with diligence, with perseverance, and not allow the ups and downs and the emotions to take over. The lure of the world, the lure of the senses. It allows me to look at all of them and go. I I see, I see Ruth, a Moabitus standing there with Naomi and saying, No, your people will be my people, your God will be my God. Where you go, I'll go. Man, if a Moabite woman can do that. Me knowing all this, why shouldn't I follow God? Yeah, you know? Yeah. So, and look at what happened to Ruth. She became what, the great grandmother of David? David, yeah. Yeah. Imagine being grafted into the family tree of Jesus. So talking to somebody who's listening or watching right now, you are in that moment, you're wondering, are my feelings right, or are my thoughts right, or am I this or am I happy, or am I all that? Most of God's people have struggled with the same, same thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

I think hearing that in and of itself is a huge sigh of relief to a lot of people, knowing that you're not alone in those doubts and those struggles and those kind of mental sessions where you have to sort through your thoughts, knowing that God's people have done this throughout history, throughout the Bible. I mean, the names that you have colored on coloring sheets in Sunday school, they did this.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah, think about my own dad. Imagine having a good family, a happy family, a rich family, a successful family, a family where if you are in that family, you've got it made. You got nothing to worry about, other than just go live and make more money.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

Everything is handed down to you. Yeah. And yet to walk away from all of that, how often would you and I would have been tempted when you are struggling to go, you know what? Enough is enough. Let me just go back home and be like, you know what? I'm not going to be a Muslim, but I'm just going to just stay here and just live life. And they would have welcomed him.

SPEAKER_05 17:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

They would have, okay, that's fine. Son, sort it out, and it's okay. Yeah. Welcome home. But he stayed the course. If he had not stayed the course, I wouldn't be here today.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

You know, there's a lot of people out there who have the, even the is people who are explicitly not Christians, who are not believers, but they've grown up with this idea, maybe it's through Disney movies or like just cultural whatever, where my ancestors are somewhere. Maybe it's not heaven with Yahweh, but my ancestors are somewhere and they're able to watch me. They're able to see what I'm doing here on the earth. Dr. Shah, is this Christ time? I mean, the the name implies it, but people think that it's possible that that can happen apart from God and apart from Jesus Christ. And can you tell us why that's wrong?

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Well, Satan will always give you a counterfeit. So all these things that we're seeing in the world about ancestors watching, you know, sometimes Disney movies have all these ancestors are calling on you, you know, like Mulan kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

That's that's the one I was thinking about.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yeah, I mean, Satan always gives you a counterfeit. There's a counterfeit trinity, there's a counterfeit word scriptures everywhere, there's counterfeit prayer everywhere. So we also counterfeit time. And unfortunately, we as believers are just coming up uh up to speed with this. That yes, there is a true way to enter into that realm where you see God's people not as distant past, but as people who live their faith and they are cheering us on. And and so in the 21st century, you're finally figuring this out. Yeah. So for that person, don't look to the counterfeit. Because if you do not know Jesus Christ, you cannot enter into God's time. That's right. So whatever all this my ancestors are calling me, or my ancestors this, or so-and-so passed away, and then now they are my angel up there. If you do not know Jesus Christ, none of that is true.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

You have no access to that realm.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

No access at all. Yeah. None. Yeah. What if you are saved and your ancestors or your predecessors were not believers? Well, to be honest with you, when I in my prayer time or my devotional time, when I think about that Christ time of Abraham and Isaac or the Hebrew Hall of Faith, and how man, these are my prayer. I don't sit back and say, I wonder what my great grandfather is doing. If anything, it's sadness. It's like, well, they didn't receive Christ, but they have a choice. They had a choice, they rejected the gospel. I'm not interested in what my fifth generation past grandfather must be right now. No, it doesn't appeal to me. Yeah. Right? If they did not know Jesus Christ, which I'm pretty sure they didn't, they're in hell. But other than that, I other than that sadness, that's not what I'm looking for. As a believer, you look for your own family, which is your spiritual family.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

Yeah. I suspect that the vast majority of people who are listening to this episode right now are saved people who have no concept of this idea. This to me, I mean, I know you said that people like Ann Jarvis and others have written on this, but this seems like something that is not often preached from pulpits. It's not often talked about on talk radio. I could be completely wrong on that, but I suspect that people are saved, but they're like, this is new to me. And on board with everything you're saying, I want to understand it better. Dr. Chuck, can you tell us a little bit about how you came to this conclusion through reading? Was it just this book specifically? Was it just studying Romans? Was it a combination of the two? And did you feel like you had that like light bulb moment? Did this open up something new for you?

SPEAKER_00 20:51

No, it did. It did. Uh something I always knew and I experienced in the sense of by faith to see, man, these are the cloud of witnesses. And they are in real time for uh they are in that other time inviting me to run the race set before us. Not some distant old, you know, dusty past, but they are they are there calling us to run, calling us to endure, calling us to keep Christ at the center. So I've always known that, but studying the book of Romans, see, I preached to Romans a couple of times. In the recent series that I did in 2025, I I I made up my mind that I'm going to explore those those aspects that previously I simply sort of just scratched the surface. And Paul in time, I knew about that concept, but I didn't have time to delve into it. But I said, this is the time I'm gonna do that. So I I bought that book and I began to read through, and I was like, man, this is amazing. And of course, Professor Ann Jarvis goes in different directions in there. In some places I agree, some I don't. And that's okay. But overall, it helped solidify that what I was reading in the scriptures was actually academically verifiable. Yeah. And that the text was saying what I thought it was saying, and then reading her work allowed me to go, okay, I was not going in the wrong direction.

SPEAKER_04 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

And and it it's been to me, it's been life changing. I don't constantly live in another world like Like meditating, well like you're floating in midair kind of Jacob. You know, I'm not I'm not doing that. Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

It's not a mystical kind of like thing like that.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

Eyes closed and transcendental, yeah. No, none of that. But we walk in the hall of faith, and in those moments of struggle and persecution, we realize that we're not alone. Others have gone through it. Yes, in our time they went through it thousands of years ago, but in the Christ time, it is as if it just happened.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Maybe that's a good way to describe it to people. I think that's that to me, that sounds like the clearest, that sounds like the clearest explanation of what is it spiritually speaking, you're walking down the hall of faith alongside these people who have walked before you.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Yeah, it's it's thinking about it in terms of like, you know, we we said before we exist in a realm that is a succession of moments. Like that we have this moment and then there'll be the next moment and then the next moment. But what if that's not the only realm? What if there is another realm where those moments are you know mirroring one another, where they're they're scattered amongst each other, and we can see backwards and forwards and around to other fathers and mothers of the faith who have gone before us, and we can see their encouragement and and they can see forward and see uh their faith realized in a church that's living out the the gospel that they're looking forward at. I mean, this this whole thing, once you once you really start digging into it, it really does unlock scripture and make it make much more sense.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Yeah. I mean, think about what Jesus said. You know, the uh some of the religious leaders came against Jesus and they wanted to you know kill him because he he wasn't he was not to them worthy of being the Messiah. And they talked about our father Abraham. What did Jesus say to them? Before Abraham was I am I am, and then he said something else. What does he say?

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Something about he lived to see my day, he saw my day, and he rejoiced. He rejoiced.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

What do you mean Abraham saw my day? Prophetically? Yeah, but also God allowed him to step into that time where he saw the day of his his coming son, who is really the son of God, and he saw the day, and how did he react?

SPEAKER_02 24:51

He rejoiced.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

He rejoiced. God allowed Abraham to get a glimpse of Jesus 2,000 years later, and he rejoiced. Nobody was there to see it, but Jesus saw it and he reported that to the religious leaders.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Yeah. Dr. Shaw, there's somebody driving down the road right now. There's someone in the gym, there's someone in the kitchen cooking, they're listening to this for the last 25 minutes. And you guys, maybe you're right about all this stuff, but I'm stressed about something else. I'm stressed about a big meeting, a big confrontation. I'm stressed about a conversation or some position, something that I've got to face. How does this help me today?

SPEAKER_05 25:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Great, great question. You know, sometimes we have to encourage ourselves. And David did that. He encouraged himself in the Lord. And how do you do that? It's like psyching yourself up, like you know, you know, beating your face up and splashing you with water. Come on. You know, it's not like that. It's seeing that our God is not the God of the dead, he's the God of the living, right? So when you read the scripture, the Bible is the word of God. It doesn't become the word of God when you read it, it's the word of God. It is living and powerful. What does that mean, living and powerful? What does that mean? Like it's like gets up and starts walking? Well, in a sense, it does. Because when you enter into those scriptures and begin to read them, you realize that these are not some old mythologies you're reading. These are actual people just like you who just lived. And when you enter the Christ time and you s begin to read it from God's perspective, this is not just Job, some old man who knows who he was. No, no, it was just yesterday he was sitting on that ash heap. This is just the day before that he was seeing his Redeemer standing on the earth. These are people just like us, and there you see Abraham willing to sacrifice us, and there you see all so as you're struggling, as you're going through a difficult time, just know that all of this has been put in the scripture, not just as some record of distant past, it's the word of God. It is to help you live as if this is for right now. Right now. That's why in every generation people have read the scriptures and and it has changed their lives. Why? Because it's a living and powerful isn't that what Paul says? That's right. Yeah, but the word of God is living and powerful. Yeah, sharper than any two-edged sword. How how is that? Because it does.

SPEAKER_05 27:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

And and it it will also convict you of sin, because if there's sin in your life, and you're looking round and you see there's David about to do something really dumb. And you think to yourself, Man, I'm about to do something really dumb. I'm about to throw all this away for that moment's pleasure. No, I can't go that way. Yeah. Because David just turns and looks at you and says, Don't do it. Don't do whatever you do. Don't do this. This is not worth it.

unknown 28:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

So don't let this book be some dead in a words on some dead pages. Let it be the word of God, living and powerful.

SPEAKER_02 28:09

That's right. That's a that's a fantastic image.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

That's right. Guys, make sure, like John said, if this was interesting to you, make sure you download the podcast app. Make sure you're following along. The podcast app is great. It's wonderful if you're listening on the radio. We love our radio listeners. Podcasting is great because you can then share those episodes with friends and family members. Uh, I also want to direct you to Dr. Shah's website, Abadanshad.com. Dr. Shah talked about his series through the Book of Romans. You'll find all of his messages, including the sermon notes to his messages, on that website. So let that be an encouragement to you and a resource for your ministry.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

That's right. There's about 30 years worth of preaching and uh expositional uh content on that website for 100% free. Think about that. Every single sermon that Dr. Shah's preach is on that website for 100% free, as well as every episode of this show. All of this content is free. And if you're benefiting from it, we want to for you to consider becoming a donor. You know, we have donors on prey.com, abadanshat.com, bus sproute. You can actually click the link in this podcast that says support the show. For as little as $3 a month, you can help us get the gospel of Jesus Christ into the airwaves every single day.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

That's right. And like John said, make sure you're testing, texting in today. T-O-D-A-Y. What's the number, John?

SPEAKER_02 29:14

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SPEAKER_01 29:24

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