What the Bible Actually Teaches About Money and Wealth | TRUTH TALK LIVE

Can a Christian be wealthy and still faithfully follow Jesus? Does the Bible condemn the rich? In this special extended episode, we hosted Truth Talk Live on the Truth Network for a full hour on a subject rarely touched from the pulpit: money, wealth, and the rise of social Marxism in America.

We walk through what the Bible actually teaches about wealth — more is said about money in Scripture than heaven and hell combined — and take the harder cultural question head-on: is the church right to worry about socialism, and is James himself a social Marxist? Dr. Abidan Shah lays out the history of economics from Adam Smith to Karl Marx, explains why the labor theory of value breaks down, and shares what it was actually like to grow up in a socialist country. Along the way, callers phone in with real questions: Can you pursue financial success without it becoming sin? What does "the love of money is the root of all evil" really mean? And is it wrong to want to be financially successful at all?

The through-line is simple but freeing: love God, use money — never the other way around. Money is a great servant but a terrible master, and the goal of wealth for the believer was never security. It was stewardship — creating and investing all of it back into the kingdom of God.

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:39

Welcome to Truth Talk Live. All right. Let's talk. A daily program powered by the Truth Network. This is going to be a great thing in Italy where pop culture, current events, and theology all come together. Your mind. And now, here's today's Truth Talk Live host.

SPEAKER_02 1:03

Can a Christian be wealthy and still faithfully follow Jesus? We want to hear your answer to that question. Give us a call, 866-34 Truth. That's 866-348-7884. Does the Bible condemn the wealthy? Welcome to Truth Talk Live. My name is John Galantis, and I'm here with today's Truth Talk host, Dr. Abadan Shah. Dr. Shaw, always a pleasure to be here with you hosting Truth Talk Live.

SPEAKER_10 1:27

Man, it's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

There's something about live radio that just gets you excited. It's like, you know that feeling on Christmas morning when you're a little kid and the balloon just swells up in your chest. That's how I feel every time we host the show. It's only our second time hosting. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_10 1:41

And thankful to Stu Epperson for giving us this opportunity. That's right. We don't take it lightly. We're very honored. And thank you to you as well. It was just you today. It just means Ryan.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Yeah, Ryan's at an appointment. He wanted to be here, but unfortunately couldn't be here. But that's okay. We're still going to have a great conversation about something that is often not talked about on Christian radio. Definitely not from the pulpit. You know, Dr. Shah, money is one of those subjects that everybody's got an opinion about. Everybody's got something they want to say about money, but they don't say it, especially not from the pulpit, or they never talk about anything else except for money.

SPEAKER_10 2:16

Right. And both of those extremes are wrong. But the reason I think this topic is important is because of the assault of social Marxism in our nation right now. And if you are keeping up with the politics, if you are keeping up with what's happening with the elections coming up, this is one place that I believe Christians are more conflicted than they've ever been. There was a generation that understood these things, but today's generation people are not sure. And so we want to address that. We want to address that historically. We want to address this uh biblically, but we want to hear from you. So please call in, talk to us, let us know how you feel about this whole issue facing not only the church, but also America today.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

That's exactly exactly right. 866-34 Truth. Call in. We want to talk to you, just like Dr. Shah said. Dr. Shah, can you lay out this issue for us? So we all need money. We all, you know, need money to survive, to operate, to function, to grow, to thrive in our churches. And yet we don't want to talk about it. We want to be private about it. We don't want anyone to know how we use our money, where the money goes. Because just like you said, this this element of social Marxism is coming into our nation. People are responding to it, reacting to it. Can you just lay out the facts for us?

SPEAKER_10 3:31

Well, you know, it's it doesn't take long if you are following the news to see how the world is now even more socialist-minded than it ever has been, communist-minded than it ever has been. And and so, you know, the church is incumbent upon the church to give a response, to speak out, but do it biblically, to do it in a way that is accurate. We we don't want to misrepresent people, but we do want to answer this. Jesus did not shy away from talking about money. That's true. You know, about 16 out of 38 of his parables were on money. Uh more is said about money in the Bible than about heaven and hell combined.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

That's about half the parables he ever told, and they're all about money.

SPEAKER_10 4:19

That's right. Five times more about money than about prayer. And in all, the Bible has as many as 2,000 references about wealth and property. And where we are in our world today, where we are in America today, Christians need to have a biblical perspective on wealth and money and how that plays on, plays out in politics today.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Yeah, absolutely. I'm speaking as a millennial Christian myself. I I think that people, and I I think I'm right on this, maybe you can kind of speak to it a little bit more. People have a really skewed understanding of what the these terms are. Capitalism, we all sort of know what that is. Marxism, socialism, communism, I think those are all kind of the same thing. Maybe there's some differences that I don't really know about. Do you want to help us kind of define these terms? Because I think if we're thinking in terms of this, it's easy to say, okay, well, maybe that one's bad, but this one's not so bad. We could we could try this one.

SPEAKER_10 5:15

Right, right. Well, I mean, it's been coming for quite some time. For the benefit of those who may not understand what Marxism, socialism, and communism means. So here's a quick lesson, and and my work is, you know, this conversation is coming from Eamon Butler's book and and Mark Skalsin's work. I mean, they have done a great job in laying out these different different categories. So talking about history, we're going back in time to pre preclassical economics. Okay. Plato, Aristotle, they talked about economy. Right. They talked about economics. In fact, it's a combination of the Greek words eikos, namamos. Oikos is house, namos is like rule or management. So economy is the management of the house. That's what it that was what it means. And in ancient times, uh it was more the focus was more about collecting gold, collecting silver. Seems simple enough. Yeah. If a nation has more gold, then they are more secure, they are more powerful. They looked upon wealth as a zero-sum game. I have gold, but you have gold.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 6:30

I'm gonna take your gold, I have more gold now, then I am now powerful. I have longevity on my side, and you're going to in time just dissipate as a nation, as a people, as a kingdom, or whatever. Because I have more of this substance than you do. Right. This is pre-classical economics. But then in the Enlightenment period, we're going back to the 18th century, the 1700s, with the coming of people like Adam Smith. Okay, Wealth of Nations. Great book. It's thick. I mean, it is thick.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

That's the one if anybody ever asks you if you've read it, they're like, uh it's sort of.

SPEAKER_10 7:13

It's a great book, but I haven't read it. It's because it yeah, it's because it's huge, right? It's like a classic. You know, classic is a book that everybody talks about, but they haven't read it. Yeah, of course. So with coming of people like Adam Smith, David Ricardo, Thomas Maltus, James Mill, uh, they began to shift that that uh understanding. It was like, you know, this zero-sum game idea is faulty. That if we have all the gold and you don't have gold, then you're you're destined to be poor. They said no. We and Adam Smith used the Bible to make his case that prosperity comes when free citizens are given the freedom to work in their own self-interest. Let me repeat that again. He used the Bible to make the argument that prosperity comes when free citizens are given the freedom to work in their own self-interest.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

So this is sort of the infancy of capitalism. This is capitalism starting to emerge and the ideas in people's heads.

SPEAKER_10 8:20

Well, he really you know put it in in writing so that people began to catch on. But they were capitalists even before that. But now they began to understand it's like, yeah, that's true. Because it's much more than just you have gold and I don't have, so I'm gonna take your gold. Now I am powerful. Now it's like, wait a minute, I can create wealth? If I work for my own self-benefit, I can create wealth. So is an economy can function like this?

SPEAKER_02 8:50

So this is the beginning of that idea that if I do well, if I try to make sure that I prosper and everyone around me is doing the same thing, overall, the economy.

SPEAKER_10 9:00

Adam Smith called it the invisible hand. Gotcha. He said the invisible hand, where where I don't know if he was really really referring to God, but he was referring to this this hand that sort of moves and begins to inspire everyone to work hard for the betterment of the whole society. Gotcha. So freedom is needed, self-interest is also important. Now, here's something else about self-interest. When you create wealth for yourself, you also want the things around you or the people around you to also improve. Because if not, after a while, you know, you'll be the only shining jewel and everything else is falling apart. You don't want to be in a culture and society like that.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Yeah, you'll be like a mouthful of rotten teeth, but you'll be the one clean tooth.

SPEAKER_10 9:48

Yeah. Great illustration. Yeah, you cannot have that. So they believed in uh lowering taxes so that people can keep their wealth, and then entrepreneurship, you know, that began to really catch on. The French at the time were also talking about the Liz Affaire, which is let be economics. And all these things give rise to the idea capitalism.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Well, I want to talk about that and I want to talk about socialism, but unfortunately, we do have to take a break. We're gonna come back and get more into that. But what do you guys think? Do you think Christians today misunderstand what the Bible says about money? Why or why not? 866-34 Truth. That's 866-348-7884. Give us a call. We'll be right back after this. Welcome back to Truth Talk Live. My name is John Galantis. I'm here with our Truth Talk Live host, Dr. Abadan Shawn. We're asking a question that affects every single one of us. Does the Bible condemn wealth? You know, James chapter 5 has some of the most strongest language in scripture about how money can affect the Christian. But Dr. Shah, do we misread this verse? Because a lot of people, I think, will look at this and say, you know, James is sounding like a social Marxist. I think really that maybe that's the way we should take this thing.

SPEAKER_10 10:59

Yeah, James chapter 5, verse 1 says, Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you. Oh my goodness. Sounds like something out of the sounds like a hashtag eat the rich. Yeah, yes. Yeah. But is that what he's referring to? And that's that's sort of the the reason for us talking about this today, because where we are in our nation, where we are in America today, we're seeing this rise of social uh Marxist, social uh communist mindset and and thinking. And we have to help, especially our young people, we have to educate them, not only historically, but also biblically, so that they will understand. Because right now, capitalism is looked upon as being not, well not they're horrible people. Look at how they're heartless and how they don't care for the poor. And and that is not the case.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_10 11:54

That is not the case.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

You know, we I think you've you've hit on that, is that there's a lack of understanding. I think it's it's not taught, especially not taught, I think, in in a lot of the public schools that people are growing up in, and people just don't have this idea about how economy works until they get into college, and even then they have to want to go into that field to start learning about these things. Having grown up in a socialist country, can you talk to us about what it was like? Because I think a lot of us will see socialism as this I this great idea on paper and think if only we could implement it right. Maybe the USSR didn't implement it right, maybe all these other places didn't implement it right, but I feel like here we can do it. Can you tell us why that's not true?

SPEAKER_10 12:31

You hear that often. I I grew up in a country that was socialist, kind of like a democratic socialist country. Where yes, there are elections, but overall it's a socialist country where where the government owns uh all the natural resources, it owns textile, it owns all these major companies, transportation. And so on the surface, people in the West think, oh man, now, you know, that's what we need here. We need the government to step in and do this and do that and the other. What they don't realize is having grown up there, it's not as great as it's cracked up to be. Yeah. I remember going in town with my grandmother and standing in line with a ration card, and she would take the ration card for my parents and then for her because she was living with us, just to buy sugar, just to buy this little tiny canister of sugar. That's it. And we had to stand in line. It was land line that was wrapped around the building, the shop. And and that's just one example of what this looks like. So when people say, Oh yeah, socialism is great, and we need this in America, and we they don't understand what they're asking for.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

But but don't you think that it's and I've I'm speaking facetiously here, of course, because this is what people will say. Don't you think that James would disagree with you? Because James is clearly saying that it's not good to be rich. If you have capitalism, it's inevitable that someone's gonna rise to the top, they're gonna make all the money. You can't do that without exploiting other people. And even the Bible in James is saying that's not the way it should be. That's the defense that's going to be thrown out.

SPEAKER_10 14:10

Right. And and we need a proper interpretation, I mean proper hermeneutics to understand what James is really saying. But before I do that, let me at least uh explain socialism so that people understand that. You know, with the industrial age that followed, followed uh this this classical period where capitalism began to rise and people began to shift their thinking for from this zero-sum game that if you if I have gold and I'm rich, if I don't have gold and I'm poor, they and as a nation as well, if the the nation that has the most gold is going to be the rulers, so that's why they had that big you know, the French were after gold and the Spaniards were after gold and the Portuguese were after gold and the British were after gold. You know, all that happened because of this idea. Right. But then with Adam Smith and others, it began to shift that we can create wealth. Okay. If free individuals are given the opportunity to create wealth, then it's going to be better for the whole society. Now, in the industrial age, uh it brought a lot of advancement, production of iron, textiles, you know, modern tools, but it also brought some brutal conditions. As people moved into those big cities, they were exposed to the cruel practices of you know bad working conditions, child labor.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Yeah, using little kids in the factories.

SPEAKER_10 15:36

Yes, child labor was there. So all these things happened. And so, and and people went from living on their farms, you know, a mile away or two miles away. Now they are right under each other. With all these mills, factories, and stuff. And so they're talking. Yeah, this is terrible. We need to rise up against the the these rich and the wealthy, and that is sort of the beginning of this socialism.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Gotcha, got you. I want to continue that conversation, but we have a caller. We've got Adam from North Carolina. He's got a comment on the topic. Adam, you were live on Truth Talk.

SPEAKER_12 16:15

Absolutely. Well, thank you. It's so great to be able to talk to you and all of y'all there. I listened to the Clearview Today show, and it's it's just incredible. Thank you, man. Thank you that y'all are putting this out there.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_12 16:27

So I just have a question. Y'all are talking about like money and things like that. Does the Bible condemn being wealthy or people having wealth or living a luxurious lifestyle? Like, like where's the line between between having money and and living that kind of lifestyle versus you know, giving to churches?

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Like if I'm a billionaire on a Malibu beach somewhere, right? And I've got like a Tony Stark house, I've got like a virtual assistant, all this stuff. Is God gonna be displeased with me? Is kind of your question.

SPEAKER_10 17:00

Well, I would say this, you know, being wealthy is not a sin. But being wealthy so that you can live in your wealth with and without any regard for those around you, that is a sin. Jesus called that out again and again. He he talked about that man who had built these barns and man, he had a bumper crop, and he filled those barns, and he's like, you know, walks outside, strolls around and says, You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna big build bigger barns. And and and and God spoke to him that night and said, You fool, tonight, tonight your soul will be taken from you. Oh man. Then whose will all these things be? Yeah. You know, because what this man was doing was he was only living for self. So being wealthy is not the problem, but being wealthy and only concerned with self and self-interest is what the Bible condemns. That's right. Again, in the Old Testament and in the New Testament.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

And I think a lot of times, Dr. Shaw, you you hit on that, that it's the heart behind these actions. It's this heart, it's what's your motive? You know, is your motive to store up things for yourself? I think a lot of times, even Christians, we sort of have that motive where we want to give ourselves a comfortable life. But I also like what you've said, and you've said this many, many times, is that some of the richest people that you've ever met, and and I think this is true for me as well, are some of the most generous, giving, mission-minded people that you'll ever meet in the world.

SPEAKER_10 18:32

Right. It's not about the content of your wallet, really. What I sometimes I have seen this, and you may agree with me or not, John, is I have seen a lot of rich who are very generous, and I've seen many poor who are who are so obsessed with their little money.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Oh, yeah. I've seen that more often than I haven't.

SPEAKER_10 18:54

Yeah. Yeah. And so uh when people talk about wealth or wealthy, I remind them, you know, in my experience, and maybe maybe I need to uh move around a little more, but but in my experience, I have seen people with no wealth but super focused on money. That's right. It's all about money and what they don't have and what they wish they could have, yeah, and how dare the rich. And I've seen a lot of rich people, they're like, Yeah, um yeah, what would you like to do? Oh, we're we're doing this mission trip. Sure, here you go. Or we're building this, or we're trying to help some people in a small inner city community. Yeah, sure, I'll I'll I'll help you. So it's really about the condition of the heart rather than the content of the wallet.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

That's right. You'd be hard pressed to find a biblical or scriptural example where there's a hard number limit on how much you're allowed to earn before God is displeased with you. But Adam, thank you so much for calling in. You know, we have one more, oh, we have one more caller, but we're gonna, yeah, absolutely. We got one more caller. We're gonna go to a quick break, but we want you guys to call in too. Do Christians misunderstand money in the Bible? 866-34 Truth. We're gonna answer that caller when we come back and continue the conversation. We'll be right back after this. We are back with Truth Talk Live. My name is John Galantis. I'm here with today's Truth Talk host, Dr. Abadon Shah. Thanks for spending part of your afternoon with us. And today's question is coming straight out of the book of James, chapter 5. Does the Bible condemn wealth? We've got a caller on the line right now. This is Thomas from North Carolina. Thomas, you are on Truth Talk Live, my friend. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_06 20:25

I'm doing great. How are y'all doing?

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Doing good. Thank you for calling.

SPEAKER_06 20:30

Yeah, thank you for having me on.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

Absolutely. You know, what are your thoughts on this? What do you do you ever stress over money? Is there ever anything? I mean, are you where where are you at in your Christian walk? And how is God kind of working through the show with you today?

SPEAKER_06 20:44

You know, I mean, I always do stress over money every now and then, but I know God has been good and he's always been providing for me. With that in mind, you know, it's hard to really stress over money when you know that God has control over everything.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Amen. Amen.

unknown 20:59

Dr.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Shaw, what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_10 21:00

Oh, yeah, I mean 100%. It's I I I'm impressed that you know, he's being honest. That yes, it is stressful. Money is is such a master. You know, that's why Jesus said you cannot serve God and mammon, because it takes on that godlike role in your life. And you feel like, man, I have to serve this, I have to do this job. And and and we need to work hard, we need to be diligent in our in our jobs or in our businesses. But we become almost so dependent on money that it feels like I have to. Yeah. I have to. And and and the way Thomas said, you know, it's it's it's something that he's working on, making sure that he doesn't stress about it.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

And I love that word that he used, control. And I think you said that yourself, you know, does are you controlling your money or does your money control you? You know, Thomas, if you're if you're not if if this isn't too personal, what are some of the things that you stress about? You sound kind of young. Are you like in school?

SPEAKER_06 21:59

Yeah, I'm actually in college right now. So, you know, just stressing about paying for that college or paying for gas or paying for anything else that I might need, you know, food and stay and all that stuff is not cheap. And especially the tuition. So it's definitely hard to pay for those things, but having trust in God is and important for sure. Do you remember those days, Dr. Shop? Oh, I do.

SPEAKER_10 22:21

I even know exactly what he's talking about. And what and an advice I will give him and anybody else who's listening is you know, God is in control. God, as as the Bible talks about, uh, that he owns all the cattles on on the hills. He he is The God who provides. So trust him, pray, do what is right. You know, years ago, I was listening to John Maxwell, who, you know, he's a big name in leadership. He said, I don't worry about money. I go out there and I work hard for God, and God always provides.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

That's right.

SPEAKER_10 22:57

So my encouragement to you is, man, work hard, trust the Lord, and He will provide. Don't don't Don't stress over it. Give your requests to Him. Ask and you shall receive, right? That's right. Give your request, whether it's a rent that is due or it's a tuition that is due or some unexpected expenses. Say, God, would you please provide? And it may happen immediately, or it may be, you know, a week later or a month later, but God is faithful. He will provide, he will take care of you.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

That's right. That's right. Absolutely. Thomas, thank you for calling, man. We also have Libna from Henderson, North Carolina, right here in our own hometown. Libna, how are you?

SPEAKER_05 23:37

I'm fine. How are you all doing?

SPEAKER_02 23:39

Doing very well.

SPEAKER_05 23:42

Okay, I have a question about like we talked about money, tithing, but what are the blessings if we tithe? Because it's very difficult to pay your bills, and then you say, what God commanded, and what is my blessing?

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I I've definitely been there where where you the end of the month is coming and you know that tithe has to be paid, right? But we look at that tithe like a bill and we start dreading it.

SPEAKER_10 24:13

Right, yeah. Right. And I would I would strongly encourage you not to let that happen. You know, tithing, of course, we find that in the old testament. In the New Testament, it's grace giving where you go above and beyond. And don't see it as, man, this is my 10% that I have to give to the Lord. No, everything belongs to him. Our whole life belongs to him. So when you give, you're giving out of a cheerful heart. You know, God loves a cheerful giver. That's right. So give cheerfully to the Lord, give, you know, joyfully, knowing that you're investing in God's eternal kingdom. So, and God will bless you. Now, you don't give so that you can get a blessing, but you will be blessed. Somehow God keeps providing. When my wife and I began our journey together as husband and wife, that's one of the priorities we had, that we are going to give our tithes and our offerings to the Lord. And, you know, I don't get locked in on that 10%. Right. Because it's grace giving. You go above and beyond. That's right. And so so far, God's record is 100%. Absolutely. He has been faithful every single time.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

That's right. Libna, don't stress about your giving. Although I know it's hard. I know at the end of the month it can get really, really tight, but God has a hand on you. Thank you for calling. We got one more caller. This is Nick calling from Durham, North Carolina. Nick, you're on Truth Talk Live.

SPEAKER_09 25:39

Hey, this is my first time calling into a show.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Well, glad to have you.

SPEAKER_09 25:46

So here's my question. I've always heard the phrase, the love of money is the root of all evil. But I know that's sometimes quoted out of context. What does the verse actually mean in like, you know, the full biblical context? That's a good question. These are tough questions.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Well, I mean, it's a good question too, because it's like, do I love my money? Well, I definitely love what the things money buys me. I love having security, I love having safety and stability and being able to be in control of my life. Does that mean I love money?

SPEAKER_10 26:16

Right. I mean, again, I go back to what I mentioned a few moments ago with another caller where it was talking about, you know, you cannot worship God and mammon. You cannot serve both. One or the other is going to claim your ultimate allegiance. So love God, use money. That's right. Okay. Money is simply a tool. Someone said, you know, money is a great servant, but a terrible master. So if you obsess over that money, I mean, it will rule your life, it will make you miserable, it will keep you awake at all hours of the night. You will do anything to get it. I mean, it's it's it's a horrible thing. So it's not money is the root of all evil, but the love of money.

SPEAKER_03 26:57

That's right.

SPEAKER_10 26:57

But I want to stress something there. I learned this from Warren Wearsby's commentary years ago. Money will demand your love. So don't think it's like, oh yeah, okay, I get it. It's not money is the root of all evil, the love of money. Okay, I got it. No. Money is not that objective. It demands you to love it and adore it and do anything for it. So be careful. That's why God Jesus compared, uh, you know, when when he put the that contrast, you cannot serve God and mammon, the God of money. Why did he do that? Because it has that god-like attribute. Yeah. It demands your allegiance, it wants you to worship it. Yeah. So great question, Nick. I mean, I would I would encourage you to make sure that God is the only one who gets your worship, that's right, your adoration, and and use money.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Yeah, I think about I think about all of the things that people do to get money, all of the crimes that that people commit, all of the forgeries and the cheating and the lying and things that people will do just to get more of this precious drug called money, sometimes to its own end. Yeah. Well, I think it's a great reminder. Thank you so much, Nick, for calling in. We've got one more caller, Patsy from Henderson. A lot of callers from Henderson today. Patsy, you're on live, Truth Talk.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Okay. I want to be financially successful. So my question is: can a person follow Jesus and pursue financial success at the same time?

SPEAKER_02 28:32

That's a pretty good question. If I'm following Jesus, you know, Jesus said, pick up your cross, follow me, lay down all these worldly things. Can I still follow Jesus and pursue success?

SPEAKER_10 28:42

That's a great question. You know, that's the question that is often being asked in our world today. Yeah. If you are financially successful, then you must not be a Christian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's almost looked upon. And I would say let's look at it carefully. Number one, there are a lot of Christians and believers across the world who do not have what we have. Okay. I've known Christians in small villages in India. Man, they don't have anything. I mean, anything, just the clothes on their on their body, maybe a change of clothing, maybe, and and they uh live hand to mouth. I won't say for a single minute that they're not blessed. Right. God has blessed them, God continues to bless them. It's it's you know, it's not dependent on their wealth. But then I've also seen people on this side of the world, they have everything and there is no blessing. Yeah, there is no peace, there is no joy, there is no purpose in life. So I wouldn't make money uh the the determining factor of whether or not you are blessed. But in America, see this is where the nuance comes in. In America, we have so many opportunities to work, to start a business, to plan and to to to create wealth that we are able to be financially successful. That's right, right? But what do we do with that? My encouragement to people is man, to whom much is given, much is expected.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Yeah, I think about that a lot. You know, we call America the land of opportunity. It's not the land of guaranteed success. It's not the land of wealth and of blessing and prosperity. It's the land of opportunity, which means you can come here and you can you can become someone. And just like you said up top, you can start creating that wealth, creating it out of nothing. Maybe we can talk about that after the next break, this this false zero-sum game. But we actually have one more caller. Thank you, Patsy, for calling in. Katie from North Carolina, you are on Truth Talk Live. Thank you for calling, Katie.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

Oh yes. So I I've always had this question, but how can a person generally follow Jesus and pursue financial success at the same time without it becoming like a sin for them?

SPEAKER_02 31:01

Yeah, I mean, it's kind of the same question Patsy just asked. Like, if if you're pursuing this, if you're pursuing money, if you're pursuing financial gain, can you still pursue Jesus?

SPEAKER_10 31:12

Yeah, I wouldn't I would say don't pursue money for money itself. Yeah. You know, there are people for them, the idea of success is somebody they saw in their life. Maybe it was their grandfather, maybe it was somebody successful in the community, maybe it's a friend that they grew up with, and that friend hit it rich and they're doing great. And then you look at yourself and you go, Man, I need to be like that. I need to have their the car they have. Yeah, I need to live in the house that they live in. And that's where envy comes in. Yeah. So having money or amassing wealth is not a sin. But when that in itself becomes your goal, then no longer are you following Jesus Christ. It is simply to get that money. One of my heroes in the faith is R. G. Laterno. Yeah. You've heard me talk about man. He was a mover of men and mountains. That's what they said. Yeah, big heavy machinery. Big heavy machinery back in the 30s, 40s, 50s. And his goal in life was not just to build big machinery. His goal in life was to do all this, create wealth, and then use it to build God's kingdom.

SPEAKER_02 32:26

Amen. And that's the goal for us as well. And hopefully that's the goal for you guys as well. We're gonna take one more break and then we're gonna be back, but we don't want you to stop calling. 866-34 Truth. That's 866-348-7884. We're gonna take one more break and we'll be back right after this. Stick around. Welcome back to Truth Talk Live. I'm John Galantis. I'm here with our Truth Talk Live host, Dr. Abadan Shah. We're asking a question that affects every single one of us. Does the Bible condemn wealth? More importantly, is James a social Marxist? I know that's a funny question, but man, you wouldn't believe how many people actually think that. I see that we have a caller from South Carolina, Joel. If you'll stick right where you are, we're gonna come to you in just one second. Dr. Show, we got we had a lot of callers call in, but I do want to wrap up this conversation on socialism because a lot of Americans really have no clue what to think on this.

SPEAKER_10 33:12

Yeah, and that's one thing that we need to do a better job from our pulpits. We need to do a better job in our schools and and our youth groups in educating our young people and understanding. I mentioned a little bit about the preclassical economics. I talked about classical economics, the Adam Smith Wealth of Nations. And on the heels of that came socialism. And we talked about the industrial age and people beginning to complain and gripe about the rich and all of that. Enter Karl Marx, who brought the idea of historical materialism. He argued that human society develops based on their production processes and the resultant class struggles. So you had the proletariats on one hand and the bourgeoisie who are the rich on the other hand, and and so every society struggles this way according to Karl Marx. And and he struggled with the whole idea of the labor theory of value. Okay, maybe it's going a little too deep, but I want to again encourage you to go do your own research. And and according to the labor theory of value, how much time does it need does it take to make this mug right here? Well, if I am not a potter, then it will take me three, four days. Yeah. Somebody knows what they're doing, it may take them 15 minutes. Or if they if it's a company that makes these things, a factory that makes these things, it'll be cheaper. So who needs to get paid? Me or that person?

SPEAKER_02 34:45

Oh, I see what you're saying. Because if it took you longer, you'd spent more time. Yeah. So the whole theory breaks down. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_10 34:51

Karl Marx's theory had so many holes, so many problems. And in a way, he kind of rectified that but from by saying it's a socially necessary labor time. I mean, he did all these kind of things. What I want our people to understand is not only does social Marxism not work in real societies, I grew up in one, okay, or democratic socialism is just as bad. But in theory itself, it doesn't work. Yeah. It has so many flaws. And yet, young people in America that feel like, oh, that's what we need. That's what we need. Look around the world and see societies that embrace this system. Yeah. And see those people. They're miserable.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Yeah. It's kind of it's kind of telling that whenever you're promised a utopia, right, in God and and with Jesus in heaven, we're trying to create our own utopia in here on earth. And now we're wondering why we can't get it right.

SPEAKER_10 35:44

Right. And it's not working out. Absolutely. And and we see that all the time. And but you know, educated young people feel like, oh, my college professor, man, he he is he is social Marxist. By the way, that's a quick reminder when we talk about Marxism or communism, you know, there's a distinction there. In socialism, you know, everything is businesses are owned, but in Marxism, communism, even the property is owned by the government. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

You don't own nothing.

SPEAKER_10 36:14

Right. But keep in mind, there's an elite there that owns a lot, and they are super rich. Anyways, I just wanted to at least uh make sure people understand. Go do your research.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Oh, absolutely. It's not what it's cracked up to be. That's right. That's right. Joel from South Carolina, thank you for being patient with us. You are on the Truth Talk live show. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_08 36:34

I'm doing well. And if I can get my car speaker, can you hear me?

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Yes, I can.

SPEAKER_08 36:42

Okay. I guess I didn't have a question when I called the comments.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

Well, Dr.

SPEAKER_08 37:12

Shaw, you are I graduated from high school in nineteen seventy-three. And going back and looking at it, and I wasn't taught in the school. It wasn't pounded into me about how government worked and how the constitution and so on. When did it when did it change?

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Same story here. I went through public school in the in the 90s and 2000s, and I wasn't taught about this. But you, Dr. Shaw, you're the educator. I mean, you've spent most of your life in academia. Where when do you think this fell through?

SPEAKER_10 37:41

Oh man, it's been coming for quite some time. And I really appreciate what Joel is saying because our system is broken and has been for quite some time. And is because of this idea that our founders got it wrong. It's the idea that we need to remove Christianity out of our school system. And and to the contrary, America works is because of our Judeo-Christian foundation. And it needs to be taught. It needs to be. And I would say in the past you know, almost 50, 60 years, this has been coming. And I'm hoping there's a change. I don't know. We're praying for a change. But we definitely, if not, we're going to use lose our young people.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

That's right. That's 100% right. Well, Joel, thank you so much for calling in. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_08 38:37

Well, let me let me let me get this in. I was raised going to church. I don't have any idea what my folks gave as far as tithing goes, as far as offering or whatever. I have no idea. It ended up where I ended up walking away from the faith in my early 20s. And I was away from it for 25 years. I wandered in the wilderness. I went through three divorces. And ended up coming back to my faith, and my current wife had to come back to her faith after she had wandered in the wilderness. And when we got together, she said something about hiding. And so she said, yes, it's important. So I started out with giving just 10% of my and later on. I need to give 10% of my room.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Wow, I think you're 100% right. Yeah, I think you're 100% right on that.

SPEAKER_08 39:47

And so now I am a choice for because I don't care about the 10%.

SPEAKER_10 39:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_08 39:55

I just I just give over above what I can do. That that is I can tell you, I can assure, I can assure anybody that does that that somehow the 90% that you can keep goes far further than the 100% that you were to keep in.

SPEAKER_10 40:15

Amen. Amen. Wow, what a testimony. I mean, that uh what you just said there, Joel, I wish a lot of Christians have heard, and I hope many more will hear in the days ahead because you can never outgive God. You're not giving it so that you can get from God, you're giving it out of obedience, but you realize what a joy it is in giving.

SPEAKER_02 40:37

That's right. Joel, thank you so much for calling in. And Dr. Shah, with the few minutes that we've got left, I want to wrap up this discussion in the book of James. You know, James, clearly, he's not he's not social Marxist, he's not advocating for anything like that. But how do we need to think about money if you've got like maybe two or three minutes left in the show? What do you want to leave our listeners with?

SPEAKER_10 40:55

Well, if you look at the context of James, you know, James is not a social Marxist, we know that. What he's talking to, uh who he's talking to are the worldly rich. The worldly rich were amassing all this wealth and poverty, and they were persecuting uh the poor, especially the Christian poor or the believers. And so he's telling them that you're guarding your rich your your riches, but your riches are corrupted, your garments are moth-eaten, your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. That is not being said to believers.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

Right.

SPEAKER_10 41:34

Okay? We as believers, we know that we are safe in Christ, but this is his indictment against those people, the worldly rich. And he's also telling them that you're gaining them through wrongful means. Capitalism does not mean that we take advantage and do whatever it takes to amass wealth. No. We do things rightfully, justly, fairly. But these people, indeed, the wages of the laborers, James 5, 4, who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out. Okay? So their means of gaining wealth was also wrong. And then how they give it. The worldly rich were not interested in giving their wealth. It says right here in verse 5 you have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury, you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. All that to say these people were living for themselves. As Joel, our last caller said so wonderfully, you know, God opened his eyes to see the joy, and he's a cheerful giver. These were not cheerful givers. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 42:41

That's right. I think you've said it before, too, but a Christian, they don't save money for security, they save it for stewardship. How do I use it? How do I take this resource that God has given me, even blessed me with, and reinvest it into the kingdom of God? Dr. Shah, how do we oh, we've got one more caller. There he is. Ryan from Henderson, North Carolina. You are on Truth Talk Live. How are you, sir?

SPEAKER_11 43:03

I'm doing very well. How are you guys? Oh, it's Ryan. Oh, Ryan.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

How are you here? Good, good, good. I saw Ryan from Henderson, North Carolina. I was like, well, maybe it's wrong.

SPEAKER_11 43:16

It is, yeah. Uh well, you know, I uh obviously I know you guys very well. But just a quick question as as we're closing, how do we how do we think about you know Jesus in the temple when he drives the drives the moneylenders out? Is that not a commentary on God's view of wealth? And and if if so or if not, how do we think about money as it relates to church life? Good question.

SPEAKER_10 43:38

Yeah, I mean, I would say give a short answer because we have a short amount of time is this that they were using the precincts of the temple where the Gentiles were supposed to be. They were using it to tie up animals and and without any regard for for the people who needed to hear the gospel. So Jesus driving them out was to bring back the gospel. That's not about wealth.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Absolutely. Ryan, thank you so much for calling in. Next time we'll see you on the couch with us. But guys, thank you for listening to Truth Talk Live. We want to make sure that you come back tomorrow or next week for another great Truth Talk host. We love you. Thank you to the Truth Network for having us. We'll see you next time.