Baptism Doesn't Save You — So Why Do It?

Believer's baptism should be the one Christian practice we can all agree on — Jesus himself modeled it for us. And yet a sermon clip about baptism went viral for all the wrong reasons, with hundreds of comments and even accusations of heresy. In this episode, we tell that story and then walk through what the Bible actually says about baptism: complete immersion, always after salvation, with no saving power of its own.

We take a quick historical survey through Qumran's purification washings, John the Baptist's call to repentance, and Jesus's own baptism, and land on Romans 6 and what it means to be immersed into Christ's death. The episode closes with a story Dr. Abidan Shah has never fully told on the show — his own father's baptism, turned away by an established church afraid of the consequences, and finally immersed in a river by a street evangelist who had never baptized anyone before in his life.

0:00 – The Sermon Clip That Went Viral
4:49 – What the Bible Actually Says About Baptism
6:53 – Does Infant Sprinkling Count?
10:01 – A Quick History: Qumran, John the Baptist, and Jesus
15:17 – Baptized Into His Death (Romans 6)
18:03 – Dr. Shah's Father: Turned Away From Baptism
22:21 – The Street Evangelist Who'd Never Baptized Anyone
24:48 – Why Baptism Isn't Optional

Transcript

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SPEAKER_03 0:40

Believers baptism ought to be the one Christian doctrine and practice we can all universally agree on. Because Jesus Himself demonstrated it for us. And yet, we can't.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

Let's walk through the conversation together. Coming up right now on the Clearview Today Show. You're listening to Clearview Today with Dr. Abadon Shah, the daily show that engages mind and heart for the gospel of Jesus Christ. I'm Ryan Hill.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

I'm John Galantis. Welcome to the Clearview Today Show. We're here in the studio with our host, Dr. Abaddon Shah. Dr. Shah, it's good to see you. Absolutely. Same here. Yes, it's a great conversation. And nervous. So I want to build on that a little bit. I'd love to begin, if I could, with a story. So if you make digital content for the internet, it is it is everybody's dream that one little piece of content that you make will explode and go viral, right? Because you want people to engage with the stuff that you make. And it's usually the content that you don't expect. You never see it coming. Right. And I think that was certainly the case in this story. So, Dr. Shudd, there was a sermon that you were preaching, and it was, and we got to a place where you were talking about believers' baptism. And as we do, we record every sermon, we turn them into reels, just like everyone is doing now.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

What does baptism represent? Well, if you go back to Paul again, what did Paul say? Baptism represents my death, my burial, my resurrection with Jesus Christ. When you come out of the water, you have risen to walk in the newness of life. Baptism doesn't save anybody. There's nothing miraculous in the head. Baptism cannot wash your sins away. Baptism tells the world. Not only are you a believer, but you have been identified with Jesus Christ. You are one with him. And the life that you now live, you live by faith in the Son of God who loved you and gave himself for you. You are one with Jesus. It's not your life anymore. You died.

SPEAKER_03 2:47

And this reel in particular went crazy. Do you remember what it was that you said?

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Yeah, I believe it was Baptism Sunday. And in fact, at Clearview, by the grace of God, we're seeing baptisms almost every Sunday. Almost every Sunday. And so in my message, I decided to say something about baptism. And I talked about how baptism does not save us, and that baptism is a representation of our death, our burial, and our resurrection with Jesus Christ. Right. Coming from Romans chapter 6.

SPEAKER_03 3:20

And there was one part in there. Do you mind just repeating the baptism doesn't do what was not save us? Baptism doesn't save us. So when it save us. So baptism is not part of salvation. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Right. This water cannot wash your sins away.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Now I want to I want to camp there for a minute because people really got angry. People really flooded our comments.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

And when we made this real, we and we released it online. We'd not release this to be controversial. We released this to be like, hey, we're going to start an argument online. It was like, hey, this is a great statement about baptism. We're going to put it out there for people. Man, were we not expecting that?

SPEAKER_03 3:54

I genuinely, genuinely, I remember when we posted it thinking like this is kind of a nothing thing. I mean, it's just like a little encouraging thing, but everyone already no people really, I had no clue. This was when we started really going deep on doctrine into on Cleavery Today, but as a response to this, because I had no clue people thought that baptism saves you and will vehemently disagree with you.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

And I want to clarify, it's not that everybody was against us because a lot of people spoke up and said, no, that man is speaking the truth. He is teaching the Bible, he is in line with traditional historic biblical Christianity. I mean, that's what they said, right? But then there was a group, man, they were very upset, angry, and calling me a heretic and all of that.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

When you get called a false teacher by one or two people, it's like, man, that is hurtful. Once it gets up into the hundreds, you start to realize, like, okay, these people are kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:45

And a lot of times what makes you go viral isn't people arguing with you, it's people arguing with each other in the comments. Oh, yeah, definitely. And there was definitely a lot of like argument and stuff going on. I was like, I was shocked. It got to the point where it was like 500, 600 comments. I was like, it we've lost control of it. We just have to let it go.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Well, it points to a larger issue that people have a misunderstanding or really just a disagreement about what baptism is. Yeah. What is this practice that has become part of Christianity that has demonstrated in scripture? How do we understand it? You know, some people treat it like a graduation ceremony, some people treat it like it is, as we saw online, part of the salvation process. And other people are just like, it's just kind of a good option. Maybe I'll do it, maybe I won't.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

If it doesn't save me, I don't really need to do it. Right. So here's what the scriptures have to say about baptism. Baptism must be by being completely immersed under water. Completely immersed under water. And salvation is key because it's after salvation. This is not pre-salvation, which we all understand. But maybe some people out there are thinking, you know, you gotta wash yourself and then you're ready. No, this is not pre-salvation, this is not during salvation, because it's not something that is an active part of being saved. This is after salvation, this is post-salvation. Jesus was immersed and all baptism uh baptisms in the New Testament were by immersion. These two facts baptism should be by complete immersion and it should be after salvation sets the standard for baptism today. Baptism has no saving power, none whatsoever. But it is the first act of obedience symbolizing several things. Number one, the believer's faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. So when I'm doing that, I'm symbol it's symbolizing that this is where I've already believed that Jesus died, he was buried, and he has risen again on the third day. But it's also symbolizing my death, the believer's death, the Christian's death to sin and resurrection to walk a new life in Christ. That's right. Okay. So that's the second thing here. So the belief, the Christian belief that he will die, be buried, and that Jesus will resurrect him from the dead. That's also sort of down the road. That what's happened in my life spiritually and then demonstrated in this baptism will one day truly happen. It will happen when Christ comes. Yeah. That I will also be resurrected. I'll be I will be buried. Now some people go, how about cremation? Is that evil is a sinful? The lot of people who are cremated today, it's not because they're trying to be pagan, they're simply you know cost effective. Right. And and that's why they do that. But either way, it doesn't matter. The Bible talks about if you were in the water and you were had a watery grave or you were, you know, had had burial at sea and you have been completely become one with the elements, you're coming back.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

If you know Jesus Christ, you're coming back.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Already, as you've said this, I would imagine that there are people online and people who are listening that have that are typing out a response or they're getting ready to like it's coming. They they've made up their mind. Listen to the rest of the episode. So listen to the full conversation before you make a snap judgment. But but immediately, and if we're going to answer this later in the show, feel free to kick this later, Dr. Shaw. But there's people who are listening to you talk about baptism being by full immersion and following salvation that are saying, I was sprinkled as a kid. What about that? Is that not a baptism? And and what does that mean for my relationship with God?

SPEAKER_03 8:45

I've heard you put it this way before, where because people genuinely they get, I don't think they get angry, but they sort of get afraid and they're like, I was baptized as a baby, I didn't have anything to do with it. Does it count? Does it count? And I always love your answer. He's like, Count towards what? What do you mean, does it count? You know what I'm saying? Because the goal in mind is that baptism saves you. And that's not the case. I remember we talked about this when this whole thing blew up. And tell me if you think this is this is me act phrasing it accurately or not, but Paul's whole thing about baptism is to unify us with Christ, which means that Jesus' baptism cannot mean something different for him than it does for us. Therefore, if we say that baptism is what saves you and Jesus' baptism means the same as ours, then he was lost until he was 33 years old. You know, and I mean I'm not using any scripture to back that up, but I mean it's just by the by the work of your art the logic, yeah. Yeah, Jesus wasn't saved until he was 33 years old. But then they would say, well, no, Jesus' baptism means something different. So then I can't agree with Paul that our baptism unifies us with him.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah. Well, there is a point that our baptism is not the baptism that Jesus was baptized with. The mode was the same, it was immersion in the Jordan River, but the significance was different. So let's back up for a few moments and just do a quick historical survey of this whole practice of baptizo, which translator should be translating as immersion, but somehow they chose to transliterate it where they keep the Greek or the Hebrew or the Aramaic word and they just anglicize it. Why did they do that? Because in the church, the Anglican church, baptism meant something very different. It was not immersion. So they said, ah, let's just make it baptism rather than immersion. But the Greek word baptizo is immerse. The Jewish people practiced baptism for centuries before the coming of Christ. They had different meanings. Those of you who have been to Qumran with me, I think, Ryan, have you been to the Qumran? No, you didn't get a chance to go, but I think Elizabeth went by there. I think Nicole was there. But the Dead Sea place, the Qumran caves, when you go there, before you even see the caves in the distance, you will already see these baptists baptism pools. Okay, where the the members of the Dead Sea Scrolls community, the Qumran community, would go down and and be baptized several times a day. They were baptized several times a day. What were they being baptized for? Were they being baptized into the death, burial, resurrection of Christ? No. This was just a part of purification. It was a rite, R-I-T-E, rite of purification. Like this is what we do because we want to be clean and holy unto the Lord. Keep in mind the Dead Sea Scrolls community or the the Qumran community were copying scripture. So many of them were sort of cleansing themselves for that great and awesome task. There were other reasons why people were baptized. This was just sort of purification in some form or the other. When John the baptizer came, and he said, Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. And he called people to come. The scribes, the Pharisees, the common people, the tax collectors, the soldiers, they all began to come to him. He baptized them. He baptized them on the other side of the Jordan, on the Jordanian side, if you were to go by today's geography. And he baptized them. What was he baptizing them in? Was he purifying them like the Qumran community? No. This was a baptism to prepare themselves for the coming of the Messiah. Repent. Baptize. Get ready. He's here. Just like if you were to be going to a wedding or to a some festive occasion. You're gonna go take a shower. What are you doing? You're trying to wash all the dirt off and fix yourself and your hair and shave or whatever else you do, get ready for that big moment. That's what the baptism was of John the Baptizer. When Jesus came to John, their interaction is very interesting because it's not like that's right, I gotta get ready for the coming of me. No, he didn't say that. In fact, John himself recognized that. I'm talking about the baptizer, not the apostle, and he says, You need to baptize me, and you want me to baptize you? And Jesus said, No, permit it to be so, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. What does that mean? Permit it to be so, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus was identifying with the people of Israel. Remember, salvation is of the Jews. It first came to God's people and then to all people. Now that was always the case, even before Jesus came. Salvation through the coming one was always to the Hebrews, to the Israelites, to the Jewish people, so they could take it to others. So here as well, when Jesus tells him, permit it to be so, so that it is fitting for all righteousness to fulfill all righteousness, he was saying that I'm going to be obedient to my father in the sight of all my brethren. He was approving John's work. Because if Jesus had said, No, not for me, then people who are watching would have said, I guess he is not with John. Like this man is coming, but he is not approving John. So who do we follow? Should we follow John? Do you follow Jesus? Is there conflict between these two? Who is more important? Who is greater? Who is smaller? No, he approved John's work by being baptized. Later, Jesus even approved his disciples baptizing the people. So this was all very, very important. We misunderstand it, but that's the whole purpose of studying the Bible. So if Jesus was baptized being perfect, what is what is being said is that you should be baptized. But his baptism was not our baptism, his was to identify with the people, to be obedient to his father, to approve John's ministry, very different baptism. Qumran community and people like them, a kind of baptism. John the Baptist's baptism, a different kind of baptism. Jesus' baptism, very unique. But then after Jesus rose from the grave, and as he's being ascended, he gives the great commission: go into all the world and make disciples. Teaching them to observe all things that I've commanded you, on and on. But there's one thing he says before that baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And really we should read that as immersing them. Immersing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. This was not the baptism by which Jesus was baptized. He didn't say, In the name of the Father, my own name, and the Holy Spirit. No, he didn't do that. John the Baptist was not saying, I'll baptize you in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. At least not to our knowledge. The Quran community were not saying that. They were saying, prepare yourself as we face the new day and as we serve the Lord today, let's, you know, cleanse ourselves. So this baptism that Jesus gave in the Great Commission a different meaning.

SPEAKER_03 16:55

Where does the sense of identifying? Because you you mentioned that Jesus, you know, partook in John's baptism to identify with Israel. Is there some connection to now we also are baptized to identify with Christ? Yes. Okay. Yes, 100%. So so I think it's interesting, and maybe you can talk about this because in our culture today, you know, culture, identity is something that is self-created. It's something that you are responsible for creating your own identity. And the less you look like the world, the less you look like Christ. And by the world, I mean like people around you, the the conformity that you're supposed to conform to. The less you look like that, the better. And really it's flying completely in the face of what Jesus set up for us.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Yeah. Now he he said this is going to be a family tradition. This is what families do. Yeah. When you are part of the family of God, you're part of the family of the Son of God, Jesus, who came through Israel, to the Jewish people, for the whole world. Always was God's plan, and definitely now is God's plan. Where God is working also with the Gentiles for a period, and then He's going to work again with His people down the road. Baptism identifies us with the family of God. It has some deeper meanings that Paul clarifies for us in Romans chapter 6. In Romans chapter 6, verses 3 through 5, it says, Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized, as were immersed into Christ Jesus, were baptized into his death? So when people were baptized as believers, they were being immersed into his death. That's powerful. Immersed into his death.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

Publicly. Was your father baptized? Yes. When he was a Christian? Maybe talk about that because I think for us, you know, there's not really a whole lot of risk in being publicly baptized in the South in the Bible Belt. But for your dad, it it cost him everything. Not only just a because he could have just been like, hey, I'm gonna walk away from this family, but I don't want to cause waves, I don't want to make trouble for the bigger.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

I'll just be quietly a Christian. No, that public declar declaration is something different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Well, it happened for him after he read the Bible, he came to John 3.16 and he gave his life to Jesus. He got saved. And then as he's reading the Bible, he sees the portion where it talks about baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. So he goes to this big established church, and he he's asked to meet with the pastor. And the church father, pastor, it was kind of a kind of an Anglican church. Just a couple of them came and they knew who he was and they said, Why do you want to be baptized? Is it because I've asked Jesus to be my savior? I read the Bible and this is what needs to happen next. Their question to him was, Are you in love with a girl? A Christian girl? Is that why are you doing this? Because typically if a Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever, they fall in love with some Christian girl, that happens, they will either try to get her to become one of them, or they will say, Fine, for your sake, I will join your religion.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

But just to get with you.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Yeah. Because I love you so much, I'm willing to do this. Are they really saved? Many of them are not. But some of them do get saved in time, but it is, it is it is very, very risky because most of the time, most of the time, they will pull that person into their faith, whether it's Islam, Christian, Hinduism, Buddhism, or something else. They'll pull them into their faith. My dad had people in our church who came from those kind of backgrounds who were there in church, is because there was a man in church who fell in love with this Hindu girl, and then he Christianized her. And then there's a woman over here who is in love with this Muslim guy, and they got married, and now she thought I could change him. And and it's it was difficult. And my dad discipled them, then worked with them, and then they truly gave their heart to Christ. It can happen, but it was very, very, very, very difficult. Wow. So that was an obvious question. Are are you in love? And he said, No. What do you mean by that? I know I don't love any Christian girl. I don't know. That's not this. This is what you believe, right? They say, Well, we do, but in your case, it's complicated. Number one, you're a Muslim or you're from a Muslim background. That is dangerous for us. Because if we baptize a Muslim young man, I mean these people around who are Muslims will burn this church down. We can't afford to do that. Secondly, your father talking about my grandfather. Your father is such a powerful man, he was a police commissioner. He said, and you know, this is back in the day. This is not the the police today that that there's a camera in their face all the time. Is it back in the day, and I'm not saying all police people are are doing bad stuff until the camera came in their face. No, that's not true. But they were feared. They were feared, like, oh, you act up, you m you will be taken downtown and may get a whooping. Yeah. You know, and at least that part of the world that happens. So he said, We don't we don't want to get involved with you. So they actually turned him away. Wow. Wow. They turned him away. The church said, We cannot baptize you here. And so my dad then was very disillusioned for a moment, like, What in the world? I want to become a Christian, and the Christians don't want me. Because they're afraid. And then one day he saw this street evangelist. He was preaching the gospel, sharing about Christ. I mean, just loud, outspoken. And my dad stood there and heard his message. And then after his message was done, he walked up to him and said, Hey, I heard your message. I would like to be baptized. And the street evangelist said, That's great. But I don't know how to do it. Wow. My dad then said, Wow, you've been you've been preaching all this time and you've never baptized anyone. He's like, Nope, not a single convert. Wow. You're the first. You're the first. He said, and then again, I'm you're not even my convert because you already got saved. Yeah. My dad said, Well, we're gonna both find out if you want to do it. He said, Okay. So they went down to the local river and got in there. He said, Well, as I read the Bible, it says baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. So let's do this. So he dunked my dad into the water one time. So that's the father.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 25:08

So he got it dunked three times. Three times. He didn't even go do the backwards lean, he just dunked him straight. I don't know how he did it, but it was like three times. Okay. Well, and then then triple baptizing the achievement for that.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

And he said, Okay, there you go. He said, I don't have any certificate, I don't have any church, I have nothing to give you. My dad said, I don't care as long as now I feel like I am properly part of the body of Jesus. That's right. And, you know, of course, as you know the rest of the story, his family disowned him, talking about my dad's family, on and on. You know, it was it was a tough road. And we're gonna have to cover this baptism subject later on. But later on, my dad did meet up with that street evangelist, and and they had a great communication for years. Later, later on, that same church invited my father to come and preach. Wow. An entire series of revival meetings.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

The same church that said we can't baptize you.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

We can't baptize you.

SPEAKER_03 26:10

I would really love it if his series was on baptism. He didn't tell me that, but I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

But I love your dad's persistence because baptism mattered so much to him. He knew that it was important. He felt like I need to do this because you know what the Bible says. There are so many people today that if one roadblock or or one thing feels off, they're like, maybe baptism is not the right time. But the persistence of your father in saying, no, this is important and I'm gonna seek out somebody who can do this for me.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

So maybe talk to us about that, Dr. Shah. As we as we're ending the show, we got maybe like two minutes left. You know, we call but because it's not necessary for salvation, we put it in the category of optional. Why is baptism simply not optional?

SPEAKER_01 26:49

Well, one, Jesus commanded it. Yeah. If he did not command it, I would say, okay, well, you know, do what you feel is best. Secondly, that word does not mean sprinkle, it means immerse. So then we have to immerse it. And then definitely the third question comes up if if it's not essential essential for salvation, then why even do it? Okay, great that you asked that question. Now let's talk about what does it mean that we are one with Christ. What does it mean that I am in Christ? Yes, Christ is in me, I get it. But what is even more prominent in scriptures is that I am in Christ, and that is the heart of Christianity. That I died, I was buried, and I have risen to walk in the newness of life, and it's all because of Christ. And I am one with my Savior, I am living in Him, and whatever that He requires of me to do, He's already done it. And I simply have to daily walk in the obedience that He has already obeyed His Father, fulfilled all righteousness, so I'm walking in Him. He said, That's confusing. I like it plain and simple, you know, do this, don't do that. This is gonna be a tough Christian life for you.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Because that was never how it was intended to be, even in the Old Testament. They were to be in the Lord, they were to walk in his life, and that is the essence of Christianity. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

And we're gonna talk more about that. That's the whole purpose of this series, is so you can understand what we believe as Christians and understand what that means for your life. What next steps do you need to take? Never been baptized? Hey, seek out a local church, get baptized, get involved, and be obedient to what God has called you to do.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

And I know we started off this episode laughing, but genuinely we do want to hear what you guys think. We want to hear how God has worked in your life through your baptism, maybe thoughts that you have, questions that you have, misunderstandings that we can clarify. So always make sure that you're texting in 252-429-6069. If you're commenting in the YouTube channel, or if you're commenting on iTunes or wherever you're commenting, we just know that we read them and we're we're eager to be able to talk with you more about baptism.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

That's right. And you can help us do that by supporting the show at Abadonshot.com forward slash give. Every gift that you give goes to helping messages like this, the radio show, get across the airwaves to people just like you who need the hope of the gospel and an explanation about what baptism does for them. You can also do that by scrolling to the description box of this video and clicking support the show. And uh make sure you're following along on any of our podcasting platforms so you can share these episodes with your loved ones.

SPEAKER_03 29:31

That's right. Big thank you to our sponsors, Mighty Muskedine, LeBlue Ultra Pure Water, Watch Safe, all organizations that have partnered with us to get the gospel in the airwaves. And if you want to partner with us, if you want to sponsor the show and support your business, you can do so at info at clearviewbc.org, or that number again is two five two four two nine six oh six nine.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

That's right. We love you guys. We'll see you next time on ClearView today.